Fairly regularly Marines come to me with theological questions. Here’s an exchange that I had by email with one of our Marines by email recently. He presented me with a thoughtful defense of the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. Instead of writing a theological paper in response, I simply inserted my commentary into the text. We’ve followed up with several lengthy discussions. I don’t presume to have all the answers and there is a lot more than can be said. However this was my stab at answering the sincere question off the top of my head in the middle of a busy week…
Chaps,
Should I not ask my departed family to pray for me, my family, and my friends, IN ADDITION TO PRAYING TO JESUS???
Sincerely,
Marine
Marine,
These are my candid thoughts on the arguments presented in this paper. While I disagree with the writer’s conclusions, I can respect the fact that he attempts a thoughtful defense of the practice. As long as we can avoid the ridicule and disparaging of the other side, we should be able to debate these issues in a civilized manner.
I understand that my conclusions probably won’t sit well with you. I hope we can still be friends… ;^) Somehow, I’m not very worried about that.
Blessings,
Chaplain
My replies in RED (For the web: my RED isn’t working right. Try to follow my responses in [brackets])
Praying to the Saints
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century. [Historicity is not the test of orthodoxy. This is one of the primary complaints of the Reformation. What matters is how faithful our practice is to that which is taught in Scripture. There are a great many heresies of ancient pedigree (a statement Rome would heartily agree with). Neither does mere popularity of the doctrine or practice justify it too. At one point an ancient heresy known as Arianism “captured” the church: it was widely accepted by a large majority. It was overthrown in short order due in no small part to the labors of St Athanasius, and is now overwhelmingly regarded by Protestant and Catholic alike as heresy.] Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
[The context shows that this interpretation cannot be justified from the text. This is an apocalyptic genre which is not meant to be interpreted in a literalistic fashion. John tells us in chapter 1 that the book is a book of signs and symbols (1:1). This is the same error made by the dispensationalists who try to interpret a book of signs in a literal fashion.]
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
[This is a silly argument. The text simply highlights the unity between church militant and church triumphant. This text does not support a doctrine of all-knowing, ubiquitous righteous dead who hear prayers. In fact, the practice of prayer to saints dangerously resembles idolatry in that it ascribes without Scriptural warrant to the righteous dead attributes reserved in Scripture for God alone (omniscience & ubiquity).]
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
[Indeed, saints in heaven do pray (Rev 6:10). If so, it is reasonable to assume that the church triumphant does indeed intercede for the church militant. However, this verse notwithstanding, it begs the question to assume that they hear the prayers directed to them.]
One Mediator 
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim. 2:5).
[Indeed this is a big problem]
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
[Absolutely agree. Well written.]
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something “good and pleasing to God,” not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
[Two issues are confused here: 1. Christians praying for each other, and, 2. Talking to the dead. It is clear that in the 1 Tim 2 passage quoted the Apostle is referring to believers supporting one another in prayer. There can be no objection to that. The objection stems from talking to dead people! When I ask a living brother in the Lord to pray for me, I’m not praying to him. I’m speaking to him as a living brother. But when we speak to the dead, we’re speaking to spirits. That is the definition of prayer. Even if our petition is simply to ask the spirit to intercede for us, that petition to a departed spirit is a form of prayer. Prayer is an element of worship, and as such, is reserved for God alone.]
“No Contact with the dead”
Sometimes Fundamentalists [this is pejorative and ad-hominem] object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not[strongly disagree], because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3).[This is an extremely poor example. That was an extraordinary one time event, where Moses and Elijah appeared to Christ; he did not pray to them or ask them to intercede for him. This text does NOT support the Catholic case, and there are no other texts that can be appealed to]. What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits.[Indeed] “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10–15).
[This is a distinction with no difference. Speaking to the dead is forbidden. I’m surprised that the story of Saul in 1 Sam 28 isn’t mentioned. There the king tries to speak to Samuel in the realm of the dead and he is condemned for it.]
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead.[True] Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.” The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf. [Again, speaking to the dead is the issue. Sincerity is not the test of orthodoxy as Nadab & Abihu tragically learned (Lev 10:1-3). Sentimentality aside, we are warned in the strongest terms not to 1. contact the dead. 2. offer worship to anyone other than God (and prayer is an element of worship). 3. There is no Scriptural precedent or justification for the practice.]
Overlooking the Obvious
Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:
“How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?
“Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.
“How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?” (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
[We’ve fallen into another trap here of speaking past each other. The Protestant does not take the Catholic’s confident assertions at face value. Where is the Scriptural proof? Any evidence to support these statements? No. They are lacking.]
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us.[Interesting idea. Unfortunately there’s no Scriptural evidence for it and the writer here offers no proof.] And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God. [Maybe so. But the other side of the equation is being ignored here: the writer offers nothing of substance to back his claims. But instead he attempts to utilize the rhetorical ‘reductio ad absurdum’ against Boettner without offering any substantial argument in support of his own thesis.]
The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven.[Now when our argument is exhausted we resort to name calling…] It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
[I hope Mr. Sheed supports his argument with sound exegesis instead of merely making unfounded assertions and resorting to ridicule. What I read here is “That’s all I can say about it. Let me refer you to this book for more details…” To that I might reply, “Loraine Boetnner is a brillian theologian who makes a very thorough and compelling case against this practice when he isn’t quoted out of context.”]
“Directly to Jesus”
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work [I am not in this group] and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory [No, I strongly object], yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. “Why not pray directly to Jesus?” they ask. [Indeed]
The answer is: “Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!” But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. [Agreed. Just not dead people, in violation of Scripture] Ultimately, the “go-directly-to-Jesus” objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? [Because Scripture requires Christians to pray for each other. It’s the same reason why we do any good thing: Christ so commands it.] If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us. [To do that would not only disobey the direct command of Scripture, but it would be like neglecting evangelism because God has already predestined his elect. We evangelize, like we pray, because God instructs us to do so.]
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
[Well said. Absolutely agree.]
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the (living?) saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). [Agreed] And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth. [This begs the question: assuming that 1. They can hear us, and that 2. Prayer to them is authorized. Both these points are still in dispute.]
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: “The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit” (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious. [To key off a similar argument above: then why would I ever ask a living brother to pray for me? If the prayers of the dead are so much more efficacious?]
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. [Agreed] Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14).[Absolutely] That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints.[Outstanding!] But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.[grin…]In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers [we dispute this], that they intercede for us [we do not dispute this], and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). [we do not dispute this either] It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing. [Wrong. It’s not narrow-mindedness at all. It’s a strong devotion to Scripture that guards us from the practice, and ultimately what keeps us from praying to saints is: 1. The lack of biblical evidence that this practice is authorized, and 2. The abundant biblical evidence that indicates the contrary.]
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!” (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, “Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!” (Ps. 148:1-2). [These verses say nothing more than that the angels and saints in heaven worship]
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us.[We do not deny this] In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well.[Agreed] John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.[The dispute continues…]
FOLLOW UP SESSION
Chaps,
Thanks sooooooo much. I just finished reading your responses. Your answers, I must say, came with passion and heart. I love that. BUT, I also feel, they came with “teaching”.
I guess the division, amongst all us Christians, not just Catholics and Protestants, will continue until the judgment day. I hope that the division is what God planned for. However, I’m not sure. [Of course God is in control of all things and everything happens according to his most holy, wise and powerful Providence that governs all his creatures and all their actions (Heb 1:3; Ps 103:19; Matt 10:29). So we can be assured that this split in Christendom is Providential, although the reasons may not be something that we can fully understand.]
After reading your responses, I feel that the following is our differences:
1) Can they (the dead saints) hear us??? [I don’t think so. Saints in heaven are still human beings. Even in their glorified state, they are human beings with a localized presence. There is no evidence in Scripture that in glorification their nature is changed so that they can know everything or see everything or hear everything. Consider Christ for example: he is presented in the gospels as a glorified person after his resurrection. Certainly he has changed! He can appear and disappear seemingly at will (Lk 24:31, 36-37). At one point he suddenly appears to his disciples behind a locked door (Jn 20:19). But in each case, he is locally present. And it’s important to realize that he’s still a real human being. The text says the disciples were fearful because they thought he was a ghost (Lk 24:37), so he picked up some fish and ate it before them. Point: he is not a disembodied spirit; he is a real person! While these points are helpful, it’s also important to remember that the saints in heaven are not resurrected yet, so they are still disembodied spirits. But the point remains the same: they have a localized presence and are not everywhere at the same time].
* We do agree that they pray for us, right??? [Scripture shows the righteous dead as being in heaven worshipping God. Prayer is an element of worship. It would be mere prejudice to assert that the saints in heaven don’t pray.]
2) That by asking our loved ones in Heaven to pray for us, we have gone against what God forbids: practicing divination, soothsaying, sorcery, wizardry etc. And heresy. [Possibly. I would probably be a little more nuanced than some of my colleagues. There are a great many prohibitions along these lines in Scripture. I think I would want to avoid anything that even remotely resembles invoking the dead.]
In closing, does Scripture say the following:
1) That saints in Heaven, can not hear us. [By good and necessary consequence I would say ‘yes’. Explicit statements in Scripture? Probably ‘no’. But neither does it teach anywhere that they CAN hear us.]
2) That God forbids us to speak to those that have passed on and “might” be in Heaven (Saints). [I think so]
My “additional” questions for you are these, if you don’t mind:
1) If they, the dead saints, can not hear us, then can they see us??? If they can not, then what are they praying for??? Do they not know what occurs on earth anymore??? [Once again, I don’t think so. If they have a localized presence, then they cannot see us. They are not here. They are in heaven. Their prayers consist of praise to God and intercession for the believers on earth in general. But they are oblivious to the ongoing struggle of the church militant. They are separated from us by death (quite a large divide, mind you…) In Luke 16 Jesus gives a parable (one that probably shouldn’t be interpreted too literally), it’s about the Rich Man and Lazarus. In it, the story says that in the other world, the righteous Lazarus could SEE across a great chasm to his counterparts in hell. The rich man, burning in the fire, pleads with Father Abraham to allow him to go back to the world of the living to warn his brothers. And Abraham promptly denies him. Interestingly enough, in the parable, the people in heaven and hell can see each other, but they cannot see the world of the living… (Luke 16:19-31).]
2) Is God truly forbidding us to speak to our loved ones, that we feel are in Heaven??? Or, is he warning us against what Scripture says above??? [I think it’s not an ‘either-or’ situation. It’s probably a ‘both-and’.]
3) You once mentioned, that when I sin, and I desire reconciliation, and desire forgiveness from God, that God immediately knows I am sorrowful, that there is really no need to do anything more (i.e. confession)[I think I’m misunderstood here. I don’t want to downplay the importance of confession and repentance. They are vital. I think my point was that confession and repentance are things that God works in us.], and that he forgives me right then and there, if I’m sorrowful[true]. (I agree) However, you stated that this is because Christ (the Spirit) is living within me, and enables me to “feel” that way.[true] Then why do I not feel guilty, each morning, when I tell my dead family, who I feel is in Heaven, that I love them and ask them to pray for not only me, BUT YOU, my family and dear friends??? [God condescends to our weakness. If he were to convict me of all remaining sin in my life right now, I would probably be overwhelmed. So he gently leads us along in our sanctification step-by-step. Also, the Holy Spirit works through the Word. So until someone is confronted with the Word of God they probably won’t be convinced of sin. This is what the Apostle has to say about that: “Indeed, I would not have known what sin was except through the Law… for apart from the Law, sin is dead.” (Rom 7:7ff) Also, know that this argument can apply to just about anything: someone could say, “I don’t FEEL guilty… so it must not be wrong.” That’s certainly not the right way to deal with it.]
Pastor Ron Gleason, Ph.D.
hump without the doc and chaplain along, right? That’s me and one of our docs. Small packs, body armor and weapons. Too bad I didn’t prep my right boot correctly. Now I’m paying for it (the wound should heal up in another week or so. I wish I were joking…)
